Discussion:
lightning detector
(too old to reply)
Tim Sailer
2004-05-21 13:22:00 UTC
Permalink
We just had a bunch of storms move through the area last night. My
lightning detector recorded 18 hits. Now, sitting and looking out the
window, there was constant activity in the clouds. I would have expected
hundreds.

I have the detector mounted under the eave at the peak of the roof, since
it was the easiest place to put it in the winter when I wanted to get it up.
I didn't want to damage cold shingles, or myself if the roof was icy. Does
the detector have to be in the open? Does the orientation of the antenna
matter? This is simply a receiver, right? In my feeble mind, none of that
should make a major difference. Maybe my ground is not well grounded?

Tim
--
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc. <<
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726 <<
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955 <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-21 13:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Tim,

That is exactly why I posted my request for information on battery life. A
storm Saturday produced 208 counts but an equally violent storm on Monday
only 14. I've since checked, my battery is as fresh as new. Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not. Just from
looking out the window I couldn't see a bit of difference. Lots of flashes,
lots of noise.

David
Post by Tim Sailer
We just had a bunch of storms move through the area last night. My
lightning detector recorded 18 hits. Now, sitting and looking out the
window, there was constant activity in the clouds. I would have expected
hundreds.
I have the detector mounted under the eave at the peak of the roof, since
it was the easiest place to put it in the winter when I wanted to get it
up.
Post by Tim Sailer
I didn't want to damage cold shingles, or myself if the roof was icy.
Does
Post by Tim Sailer
the detector have to be in the open? Does the orientation of the antenna
matter? This is simply a receiver, right? In my feeble mind, none of that
should make a major difference. Maybe my ground is not well grounded?
Tim
--
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc.
<<
Post by Tim Sailer
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726
<<
Post by Tim Sailer
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955
<<
<<
Post by Tim Sailer
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Tim Sailer
2004-05-21 14:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
That is exactly why I posted my request for information on battery life. A
storm Saturday produced 208 counts but an equally violent storm on Monday
only 14. I've since checked, my battery is as fresh as new. Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not. Just from
looking out the window I couldn't see a bit of difference. Lots of flashes,
lots of noise.
It was a fantastic light show. It's funny. I had it on the bench, in my
basement, for quite a few months. One storm, I got almost 1000 hits in
about 50 minutes! There was one sample period (2 mins) that had almost 200
hits, so, about 100/min! Now, when I moved it outside, I'm sorta dis-
appointed.

Tim
--
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc. <<
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726 <<
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955 <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
H***@aol.com
2004-05-21 14:09:08 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if it's
polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud, mostly) would be
detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that one storm had mostly
cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is
polarized horizontally, it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its
axis and more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.

Just speculating here....

Steve Hendrix
Tim Sailer
2004-05-21 14:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if it's
polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud, mostly) would be
detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that one storm had mostly
cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is
polarized horizontally, it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its
axis and more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
So, we should create an "L" antenna, or mount it at a 45 Deg. angle
to get a mix? :) It may be worth the experiment. I'll have to buy
a second one and run them side by side...

Tim
--
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc. <<
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726 <<
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955 <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ICSFSEDoD
2004-05-21 14:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Anyone know if Arne's software support the lightining sensor? I bought one,
but never have hooked it up.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Sailer" <***@hotmail.com>
To: "List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices" <***@buoy.com>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Weather] lightning detector
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if it's
polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud, mostly) would be
detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that one storm had mostly
cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is
polarized horizontally, it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its
axis and more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
So, we should create an "L" antenna, or mount it at a 45 Deg. angle
to get a mix? :) It may be worth the experiment. I'll have to buy
a second one and run them side by side...
Tim
--
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc. <<
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726 <<
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955 <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Brian C. Lane
2004-05-21 15:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if it's
polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud, mostly) would be
detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that one storm had mostly
cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is
polarized horizontally, it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its
axis and more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
So, we should create an "L" antenna, or mount it at a 45 Deg. angle
to get a mix? :) It may be worth the experiment. I'll have to buy
a second one and run them side by side...
I remember seeing a lightning detector project from one of the universities
that used a 2 axis configuration. I seem to remember a PCB tube frame about
2' x 2' in the picture I saw. I can't seem to find a link to it right now
though -- maybe someone knows the project that I'm remembering?

Brian
--
---[Office 71.4F]--[Fridge 44.3F]---[Fozzy 96.1F]--[Coaster 70.2F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
David Lissiuk
2004-05-21 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Brian,

Is this the Penn State lightning project you are thinking of?..

http://bub2.meteo.psu.edu/default.htm

This link and others are at www.1wire.org

Direct address to the proper link page is:

http://www.1wire.org/index.html?target=p_75.html&lang=en-us

Hope this helps...

David Lissiuk



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Brian C. Lane
2004-05-21 17:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Lissiuk
Brian,
Is this the Penn State lightning project you are thinking of?..
http://bub2.meteo.psu.edu/default.htm
Yup! That's the one. A bit complicated, but it looks like it works pretty
well.
Post by David Lissiuk
This link and others are at www.1wire.org
http://www.1wire.org/index.html?target=p_75.html&lang=en-us
Hope this helps...
Thanks,

Brian
--
---[Office 71.3F]--[Fridge 44.4F]---[Fozzy 96.1F]--[Coaster 71.4F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-21 14:57:37 UTC
Permalink
That is what I was wondering. It did seem to me that more of the lightning
was cloud to cloud than cloud to ground but that is a very empirical
judgement on my part. I based that on the first storm having house shaking
booms followed by a long decayed roll, the second by a muted boom followed
by a long decayed roll. (Someone a few miles to the west was struck by
lightning during the first storm and there was other ground damage which
was not reported to my knowledge during the second.) The FM radio was on
during both events, during the second I noted that the flashes were
accompanied by interruption of the FM signal, which is usually pretty
immune to those problems (in my house, listening to the station I like to
listen too, using a horizontal dipole.)

In both cases the storms were along cold fronts that approached from the
west and passed directly over head. We saw lightning from the west as it
approached, we saw it all around us, we saw it to the east as it went out
over the ocean.

Makes getting a second detector and running the antenna horizontal sound
interesting. Does anyone have a completed unit for sale? (Board level work
is in my past.)

David
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if
it's polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud,
mostly) would be detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that
one storm had mostly cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was
mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is polarized horizontally,
it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its axis and
more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
Steve Hendrix_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-21 15:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it does, it supports up to 8 counters I believe. You name it yourself,
it is logged but no graphing.

You can see mine at: http://www.salspray.com/weather/weather.html

David
Post by ICSFSEDoD
Anyone know if Arne's software support the lightining sensor? I bought
one,
Post by ICSFSEDoD
but never have hooked it up.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Weather] lightning detector
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if it's
polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud,
mostly)
Post by ICSFSEDoD
would be
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that one storm had
mostly
Post by ICSFSEDoD
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was mostly cloud-to-ground. If
the detector is
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
polarized horizontally, it would naturally be less sensitive to
storms
Post by ICSFSEDoD
along its
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
axis and more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
So, we should create an "L" antenna, or mount it at a 45 Deg. angle
to get a mix? :) It may be worth the experiment. I'll have to buy
a second one and run them side by side...
Tim
--
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc.
<<
Post by ICSFSEDoD
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726
<<
Post by ICSFSEDoD
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955
<<
<<
Post by ICSFSEDoD
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
e***@charter.net
2004-05-21 15:21:58 UTC
Permalink
David,

I don't have any assembled units in stock at the moment but if you would like to purchase one I could enable the assembled button on my web site and I would put one together for you this weekend.

The address is www.hobby-boards.com just in case you don't have it already.

Eric
Date: 2004/05/21 Fri PM 02:57:37 GMT
Subject: Re: [Weather] lightning detector
That is what I was wondering. It did seem to me that more of the lightning
was cloud to cloud than cloud to ground but that is a very empirical
judgement on my part. I based that on the first storm having house shaking
booms followed by a long decayed roll, the second by a muted boom followed
by a long decayed roll. (Someone a few miles to the west was struck by
lightning during the first storm and there was other ground damage which
was not reported to my knowledge during the second.) The FM radio was on
during both events, during the second I noted that the flashes were
accompanied by interruption of the FM signal, which is usually pretty
immune to those problems (in my house, listening to the station I like to
listen too, using a horizontal dipole.)
In both cases the storms were along cold fronts that approached from the
west and passed directly over head. We saw lightning from the west as it
approached, we saw it all around us, we saw it to the east as it went out
over the ocean.
Makes getting a second detector and running the antenna horizontal sound
interesting. Does anyone have a completed unit for sale? (Board level work
is in my past.)
David
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if
it's polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud,
mostly) would be detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that
one storm had mostly cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was
mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is polarized horizontally,
it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its axis and
more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
Steve Hendrix_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
e***@charter.net
2004-05-21 15:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Yes it does. I don't remember exactly how to get to it because it has been a while since I have used his software. I do know that it was a pop-up window.

Hope that helps.

Eric
Date: 2004/05/21 Fri PM 02:56:13 GMT
Subject: Re: [Weather] lightning detector
Anyone know if Arne's software support the lightining sensor? I bought one,
but never have hooked it up.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Weather] lightning detector
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if it's
polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud, mostly)
would be
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that one storm had mostly
cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was mostly cloud-to-ground. If
the detector is
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
polarized horizontally, it would naturally be less sensitive to storms
along its
Post by Tim Sailer
Post by H***@aol.com
axis and more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
So, we should create an "L" antenna, or mount it at a 45 Deg. angle
to get a mix? :) It may be worth the experiment. I'll have to buy
a second one and run them side by side...
Tim
--
Post by H***@aol.com
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Tim Sailer >< Coastal Internet, Inc. <<
Network and Systems Operations >< PO Box 726 <<
http://www.buoy.com >< Moriches, NY 11955 <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Brian C. Lane
2004-05-21 16:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Tim,
Having the detector in the open is important. I am not an "RF" expert
in any way, but from what I understand, the lower the frequency, the
less it is able to penetrate buildings or wall. Since the frequency
range of the detector is around 100 to 500 kHz, keeping it in the open
is critical. Also, when the rain starts and the walls get wet, that
causes more shielding. As an experiment, I set one up in the second
story of my house and another one outside at about the same height. The
one outside had about 100 times more hits than the one inside.
Actually, where RF is concerned, the opposite it true. Very Low Freq. is
more able to penetrate blocking objects. The shorter the wavelength the
more susceptible to blocking by things like trees, rain, etc.

With lightning detectors I would expect height above ground to be the biggest
factor. The higher you are the easier it is to 'see' farther away.
Secondly, the earth ground is also important. Since the detector
measures the difference between its antenna and earth, having a good
ground make a big difference. I've also noticed on some installations,
the building power ground did not work as well as a ground rod. Not
sure what causes this, but I suspect at those frequencies, the building
wiring has some impedance or pickup.
Next to height, grounding would be my second choice for 'importance'. Having
a good ground is always a good thing, no matter what you are doing :)

Brian
--
---[Office 71.3F]--[Fridge 44.1F]---[Fozzy 96.1F]--[Coaster 70.8F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-21 18:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Sure, I would like to do that. Want to enable it for me?

Thanks,

David
Post by e***@charter.net
David,
I don't have any assembled units in stock at the moment but if you
would like to purchase one I could enable the assembled button on my
web site and I would put one together for you this weekend.
The address is www.hobby-boards.com just in case you don't have it
already.
Post by e***@charter.net
Eric
Date: 2004/05/21 Fri PM 02:57:37 GMT
Subject: Re: [Weather] lightning detector
That is what I was wondering. It did seem to me that more of the
lightning
Post by e***@charter.net
was cloud to cloud than cloud to ground but that is a very empirical
judgement on my part. I based that on the first storm having house
shaking
Post by e***@charter.net
booms followed by a long decayed roll, the second by a muted boom
followed
Post by e***@charter.net
by a long decayed roll. (Someone a few miles to the west was struck by
lightning during the first storm and there was other ground damage
which
Post by e***@charter.net
was not reported to my knowledge during the second.) The FM radio was
on
Post by e***@charter.net
during both events, during the second I noted that the flashes were
accompanied by interruption of the FM signal, which is usually pretty
immune to those problems (in my house, listening to the station I like
to
Post by e***@charter.net
listen too, using a horizontal dipole.)
In both cases the storms were along cold fronts that approached from
the
Post by e***@charter.net
west and passed directly over head. We saw lightning from the west as
it
Post by e***@charter.net
approached, we saw it all around us, we saw it to the east as it went
out
Post by e***@charter.net
over the ocean.
Makes getting a second detector and running the antenna horizontal
sound
Post by e***@charter.net
interesting. Does anyone have a completed unit for sale? (Board level
work
Post by e***@charter.net
is in my past.)
David
Post by H***@aol.com
In a message dated 2004-05-21 10:02:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Are there some
types of lightning that we detect and some that we do not.
I'm not familiar with that particular lightning detector, but if
it's polarized vertically, then horizontal strokes (cloud-to-cloud,
mostly) would be detected much more weakly. Thus it's possible that
one storm had mostly cloud-to-cloud lightning and the other was
mostly cloud-to-ground. If the detector is polarized horizontally,
it would naturally be less sensitive to storms along its axis and
more so to storms in a perpendicular direction.
Just speculating here....
Steve Hendrix_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-21 18:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Brian,

I am glad you brought up grounds. I hadn't mentioned that yet, but I am
sure it plays a factor. I have a good network of ground rods plus a 100 ft
of new 1" copper water line just buried 5 ft down so I think I am pretty
well fixed in that department. However when it came to hooking one to the
lightning detector I did with what I had on hand and ran about 50 ft of
stranded copper wire to the ground system, probably 18 gage. I wonder if
this might look a little "soft" to the noise spikes we are trying to catch?

David
Post by Brian C. Lane
Tim,
Having the detector in the open is important. I am not an "RF" expert
in any way, but from what I understand, the lower the frequency, the
less it is able to penetrate buildings or wall. Since the frequency
range of the detector is around 100 to 500 kHz, keeping it in the open
is critical. Also, when the rain starts and the walls get wet, that
causes more shielding. As an experiment, I set one up in the second
story of my house and another one outside at about the same height. The
one outside had about 100 times more hits than the one inside.
Actually, where RF is concerned, the opposite it true. Very Low Freq. is
more able to penetrate blocking objects. The shorter the wavelength the
more susceptible to blocking by things like trees, rain, etc.
With lightning detectors I would expect height above ground to be the
biggest
Post by Brian C. Lane
factor. The higher you are the easier it is to 'see' farther away.
Secondly, the earth ground is also important. Since the detector
measures the difference between its antenna and earth, having a good
ground make a big difference. I've also noticed on some installations,
the building power ground did not work as well as a ground rod. Not
sure what causes this, but I suspect at those frequencies, the building
wiring has some impedance or pickup.
Next to height, grounding would be my second choice for 'importance'.
Having
Post by Brian C. Lane
a good ground is always a good thing, no matter what you are doing :)
Brian
--
---[Office 71.3F]--[Fridge 44.1F]---[Fozzy 96.1F]--[Coaster 70.8F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
[attachment "atto320z.dat" deleted by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM]
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Herbert E. Plett
2004-05-21 20:20:28 UTC
Permalink
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-24 15:11:34 UTC
Permalink
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work? It
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design something
that resists ice loading in the winter.

BTW: we had another big one last night, it is getting to be a regular 3am
thing. The detector saw 171 counts this time. There were a number of
flashes that had no discernible interval between flash and sound. More
predicted for this evening.

I am looking forward to getting the second detector to see how the
horizontal counts compare to the vertical.

David

David Gibson - aka "David"
EI L3 Support
Portsmouth Lab - IBM Software Group
603-559-8626 T/L 335-8626
***@us.ibm.com



"Herbert E.
Plett"
<***@yaho To
o.com> ***@buoy.com, ***@dalsemi.com
Sent by: cc
weather-bounces
@buoy.com bcc
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Subject
05/21/2004 [Weather] Re: lightning detector
04:20 PM


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Wire Weather
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--- Tim Sailer <***@buoy.com> wrote:
...
Post by Tim Sailer
So, we should create an "L" antenna, or mount it at a 45 Deg. angle
to get a mix? :) It may be worth the experiment. I'll have to buy
a second one and run them side by side...
the counter actually has two inputs, use one for vertical antenna and one
for
horizontal antenna.
who knows?




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Matt Chapman
2004-05-24 16:30:23 UTC
Permalink
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work? It
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design something
that resists ice loading in the winter.
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-24 17:51:43 UTC
Permalink
I was just scrounging around at Home Depot and picked up large plastic
rectangular junction box with weather proof cover and a couple of 36" brass
1/8" rods. I thought I would thread the ends of the brass rods and mount
one up and one to the side.

The problem is with going out horizontal is that ice, and snow if it is
large enough will load up on the element and bend it. I'm not sure if the
brass will hold up. Its pretty easily bent. I wish I had some stainless
steel rods like are on my fixed mount VHF antenna. It has a vertical rod
and three ground plane rods. They have been at the top of the mast for 5
years now without suffering damaged. But its expensive to buy.

Question to the list: what are others using for antenna lengths? Mine is
about 36" right now but not mounted very high. It is under the second story
eves right now. I wanted to confirm it was working properly before I took
it on up higher.

David

David Gibson - aka "David"
EI L3 Support
Portsmouth Lab - IBM Software Group
603-559-8626 T/L 335-8626
Post by Matt Chapman
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work?
It
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design
something
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
that resists ice loading in the winter.
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
William
2004-05-24 18:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Matt - Could you expand on that?

William C. "Jack" Sheehan
Managing Partner, President
Financial Management Group, LLC
e-mail ***@fin-man.com
web site http://www.fin-man.com
tel 978-369-6128
fax 206-600-6128


-----Original Message-----
From: weather-***@buoy.com [mailto:weather-***@buoy.com] On Behalf
Of Matt Chapman
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:30 PM
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Cc: ***@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna

The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work? It
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design something
that resists ice loading in the winter.
Matt Chapman
2004-05-25 00:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Well, a 18" horizontal tube (loaded with ice) will create
an off-balance load, stressing the main support pole.
Adding an empty horizontal tube opposite the antenna tube
should balance the load (assuming both load up equally
with ice.) If the main support is strong enough I guess
this isn't an issue.

Now that I think of it, probably a bigger concern is the
antenna tube itself. I think most of us are using PVC tubing,
which doesn't have much internal strength. In that case
a support wire attached to the tip of the horizontal tube
would help (forming a triangle.)

Or did I misunderstand David's original post, and he has
a different concern?

- Matt
Post by William
Matt - Could you expand on that?
William C. "Jack" Sheehan
Managing Partner, President
Financial Management Group, LLC
web site http://www.fin-man.com
tel 978-369-6128
fax 206-600-6128
-----Original Message-----
Of Matt Chapman
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:30 PM
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work? It
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design something
that resists ice loading in the winter.
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
ICSFSEDoD
2004-05-25 13:55:48 UTC
Permalink
What about using Steel Rebar like one would use to in concrete inside the
PVC. It could work as the antenna and a stiffener.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Chapman" <***@hotmail.com>
To: "List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices" <***@buoy.com>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
Post by Matt Chapman
Well, a 18" horizontal tube (loaded with ice) will create
an off-balance load, stressing the main support pole.
Adding an empty horizontal tube opposite the antenna tube
should balance the load (assuming both load up equally
with ice.) If the main support is strong enough I guess
this isn't an issue.
Now that I think of it, probably a bigger concern is the
antenna tube itself. I think most of us are using PVC tubing,
which doesn't have much internal strength. In that case
a support wire attached to the tip of the horizontal tube
would help (forming a triangle.)
Or did I misunderstand David's original post, and he has
a different concern?
- Matt
Post by William
Matt - Could you expand on that?
William C. "Jack" Sheehan
Managing Partner, President
Financial Management Group, LLC
web site http://www.fin-man.com
tel 978-369-6128
fax 206-600-6128
-----Original Message-----
Of Matt Chapman
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:30 PM
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work? It
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design something
that resists ice loading in the winter.
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-25 12:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Matt, you understand my concerns exactly. PVC will also deform and not
return to its original shape. I can do almost anything for now since it is
spring here but it should be able to survive next winter.

Humm, I wonder...Radio Shack sells a VHF fixed mount antenna with a
vertical center element and three down sloping ground plane elements. I
wonder if this could be mounted on a weather proof utility box and the
vertical used for one lightning detector and the ground planes for the
other? Maybe it would work. Any experts got feelings on that? Its only $24
so even to use it for the stainless steel elements would work.

Anyone have any thoughts on what a center feed antenna for the horizontal
would be like, say if I put two shorter horizontal elements and connected
them together in the center?

BTW: We had our third major TS pass through the area yesterday evening
around 9:30. Much fewer counts this time than in the previous two. I saw
light flashes that were not counted.

David
Post by Matt Chapman
Well, a 18" horizontal tube (loaded with ice) will create
an off-balance load, stressing the main support pole.
Adding an empty horizontal tube opposite the antenna tube
should balance the load (assuming both load up equally
with ice.) If the main support is strong enough I guess
this isn't an issue.
Now that I think of it, probably a bigger concern is the
antenna tube itself. I think most of us are using PVC tubing,
which doesn't have much internal strength. In that case
a support wire attached to the tip of the horizontal tube
would help (forming a triangle.)
Or did I misunderstand David's original post, and he has
a different concern?
- Matt
Post by William
Matt - Could you expand on that?
William C. "Jack" Sheehan
Managing Partner, President
Financial Management Group, LLC
web site http://www.fin-man.com
tel 978-369-6128
fax 206-600-6128
-----Original Message-----
Behalf
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Of Matt Chapman
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:30 PM
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work?
It
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design
something
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
that resists ice loading in the winter.
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Jim Sullivan
2004-05-25 23:54:15 UTC
Permalink
I'll have a go at this topic...

The 1-Wire Lightining counter detects large magnitude electric pulses. There
are no tuned radio frequency components, so it detects a broad-band of
pulses. The antenna, when vertically oriented will favor
vertically-polarized pulses. It is also omni-directional when vertical. It
may have a dead-zone directly overhead, but lightining that close is going
to register anyway. The circuit can probably detect energy into the medium
HF range (20 MHz or so) and everything below.

When this antenna is horizontal, it will favor horizontal polarized pulses.
It will also be somewhat directional. The sensitivity lost off the end is
hard to say, since the frequency spectrum it receives is very large. It
should be built as a doublet, two equal arms, one connected to the 15k
resistor on Q1's base, the other to the circuit's negative side. To cover
the dead zone, a second horizontal antenna is needed, oriented at 90
degrees, connected to a separate detector circuit.

Now consider what will be gained from the second and third detector. With a
large enough pulse, all detectors will see it. The polarization of a strike
may be both horizontal and vertical, again all counter register. If the
strike is in the dead zone of the horizontal antenna, it may still count if
large enough. This system needs some real world experiments to prove it's
worth the trouble. The result will still be a relative count of strikes, the
directionality will be uncertain without time-of-arrival and magnitude
information.

Finally, in my opinion, the 1-Wire Lightining Detector is a good activity
monitor. To do more requires much more than we can get from the 1-Wire
network. To see magnitude requires very fast A-D converters. Direction needs
several widely spaced vertical and horizontal antennas. Pretty soon you have
the Penn State system. Going beyond the pulse detector means expensive and
sophisticated equipment, because we need to find the magnitude and time of
arrival at several antennas. Some amateur work has been done, Scientific
American and Nuts & Volts have published articles, I will try to locate them
and post the links.

Jim Sullivan

Amateur Radio http://members.cox.net/n7tcf
Weather Station http://members.cox.net/n7tcfweather


-----Original Message-----
From: weather-***@buoy.com [mailto:weather-***@buoy.com]On
Behalf Of David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 05:33
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna






Matt, you understand my concerns exactly. PVC will also deform and not
return to its original shape. I can do almost anything for now since it is
spring here but it should be able to survive next winter.

Humm, I wonder...Radio Shack sells a VHF fixed mount antenna with a
vertical center element and three down sloping ground plane elements. I
wonder if this could be mounted on a weather proof utility box and the
vertical used for one lightning detector and the ground planes for the
other? Maybe it would work. Any experts got feelings on that? Its only $24
so even to use it for the stainless steel elements would work.

Anyone have any thoughts on what a center feed antenna for the horizontal
would be like, say if I put two shorter horizontal elements and connected
them together in the center?

BTW: We had our third major TS pass through the area yesterday evening
around 9:30. Much fewer counts this time than in the previous two. I saw
light flashes that were not counted.

David
Post by Matt Chapman
Well, a 18" horizontal tube (loaded with ice) will create
an off-balance load, stressing the main support pole.
Adding an empty horizontal tube opposite the antenna tube
should balance the load (assuming both load up equally
with ice.) If the main support is strong enough I guess
this isn't an issue.
Now that I think of it, probably a bigger concern is the
antenna tube itself. I think most of us are using PVC tubing,
which doesn't have much internal strength. In that case
a support wire attached to the tip of the horizontal tube
would help (forming a triangle.)
Or did I misunderstand David's original post, and he has
a different concern?
- Matt
Post by William
Matt - Could you expand on that?
William C. "Jack" Sheehan
Managing Partner, President
Financial Management Group, LLC
web site http://www.fin-man.com
tel 978-369-6128
fax 206-600-6128
-----Original Message-----
Behalf
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Of Matt Chapman
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:30 PM
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work?
It
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design
something
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
that resists ice loading in the winter.
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-05-26 12:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Jim, thanks for jumping in. This is the sort of information I was looking
for.

So I might need three lightning detectors, huh? One vertical, one N-S, and
one E-W?

Eric just built me a new one and I have a housing to mount it in.

Antenna length? How much effect do you think that has? Would 18 inch
elements be in the ball park?

David

David Gibson - aka "David"
EI L3 Support
Portsmouth Lab - IBM Software Group
603-559-8626 T/L 335-8626
Post by Jim Sullivan
I'll have a go at this topic...
The 1-Wire Lightining counter detects large magnitude electric pulses.
There
Post by Jim Sullivan
are no tuned radio frequency components, so it detects a broad-band of
pulses. The antenna, when vertically oriented will favor
vertically-polarized pulses. It is also omni-directional when vertical.
It
Post by Jim Sullivan
may have a dead-zone directly overhead, but lightining that close is
going
Post by Jim Sullivan
to register anyway. The circuit can probably detect energy into the
medium
Post by Jim Sullivan
HF range (20 MHz or so) and everything below.
When this antenna is horizontal, it will favor horizontal polarized
pulses.
Post by Jim Sullivan
It will also be somewhat directional. The sensitivity lost off the end is
hard to say, since the frequency spectrum it receives is very large. It
should be built as a doublet, two equal arms, one connected to the 15k
resistor on Q1's base, the other to the circuit's negative side. To cover
the dead zone, a second horizontal antenna is needed, oriented at 90
degrees, connected to a separate detector circuit.
Now consider what will be gained from the second and third detector. With
a
Post by Jim Sullivan
large enough pulse, all detectors will see it. The polarization of a
strike
Post by Jim Sullivan
may be both horizontal and vertical, again all counter register. If the
strike is in the dead zone of the horizontal antenna, it may still count
if
Post by Jim Sullivan
large enough. This system needs some real world experiments to prove it's
worth the trouble. The result will still be a relative count of strikes,
the
Post by Jim Sullivan
directionality will be uncertain without time-of-arrival and magnitude
information.
Finally, in my opinion, the 1-Wire Lightining Detector is a good activity
monitor. To do more requires much more than we can get from the 1-Wire
network. To see magnitude requires very fast A-D converters. Direction
needs
Post by Jim Sullivan
several widely spaced vertical and horizontal antennas. Pretty soon you
have
Post by Jim Sullivan
the Penn State system. Going beyond the pulse detector means expensive
and
Post by Jim Sullivan
sophisticated equipment, because we need to find the magnitude and time
of
Post by Jim Sullivan
arrival at several antennas. Some amateur work has been done, Scientific
American and Nuts & Volts have published articles, I will try to locate
them
Post by Jim Sullivan
and post the links.
Jim Sullivan
Amateur Radio http://members.cox.net/n7tcf
Weather Station http://members.cox.net/n7tcfweather
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 05:33
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
Matt, you understand my concerns exactly. PVC will also deform and not
return to its original shape. I can do almost anything for now since it
is
Post by Jim Sullivan
spring here but it should be able to survive next winter.
Humm, I wonder...Radio Shack sells a VHF fixed mount antenna with a
vertical center element and three down sloping ground plane elements. I
wonder if this could be mounted on a weather proof utility box and the
vertical used for one lightning detector and the ground planes for the
other? Maybe it would work. Any experts got feelings on that? Its only
$24
Post by Jim Sullivan
so even to use it for the stainless steel elements would work.
Anyone have any thoughts on what a center feed antenna for the horizontal
would be like, say if I put two shorter horizontal elements and connected
them together in the center?
BTW: We had our third major TS pass through the area yesterday evening
around 9:30. Much fewer counts this time than in the previous two. I saw
light flashes that were not counted.
David
Post by Matt Chapman
Well, a 18" horizontal tube (loaded with ice) will create
an off-balance load, stressing the main support pole.
Adding an empty horizontal tube opposite the antenna tube
should balance the load (assuming both load up equally
with ice.) If the main support is strong enough I guess
this isn't an issue.
Now that I think of it, probably a bigger concern is the
antenna tube itself. I think most of us are using PVC tubing,
which doesn't have much internal strength. In that case
a support wire attached to the tip of the horizontal tube
would help (forming a triangle.)
Or did I misunderstand David's original post, and he has
a different concern?
- Matt
Post by William
Matt - Could you expand on that?
William C. "Jack" Sheehan
Managing Partner, President
Financial Management Group, LLC
web site http://www.fin-man.com
tel 978-369-6128
fax 206-600-6128
-----Original Message-----
Behalf
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Of Matt Chapman
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:30 PM
To: List for 1 Wire Weather Stations and devices
Subject: Re: [Weather] Re: lightning detector horizontal antenna
The housing could be center-mounted, with the antenna in just
one leg. - Matt
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I am wondering, would a horizontal antenna tapped at the center work?
It
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
been way too long since I took those classes. I have to design
something
Post by Matt Chapman
Post by William
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
that resists ice loading in the winter.
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-06-07 18:43:49 UTC
Permalink
I've had reports from someone off list saying that all his email was
getting returned. I see the Dallas list is still running. Where are we now?

David
Brian C. Lane
2004-06-07 18:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I've had reports from someone off list saying that all his email was
getting returned. I see the Dallas list is still running. Where are we now?
The Dallas list is going away on June 15. The action is all on buoy.com now :)

Brian
--
---[Office 71.4F]--[Fridge 37.9F]---[Fozzy 96.3F]--[Coaster 71.4F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-06-07 19:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Brian. Just seems there is little action today. If someone wants to
subscribe where do they go? The info I saved says "visit the URL's" but not
the URL's. www.buoy.com is just the site for the ISP.

David
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:43:49PM -0400, David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
I've had reports from someone off list saying that all his email was
getting returned. I see the Dallas list is still running. Where are we
now?
The Dallas list is going away on June 15. The action is all on buoy.com
now :)
Brian
--
---[Office 71.4F]--[Fridge 37.9F]---[Fozzy 96.3F]--[Coaster 71.4F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
[attachment "attldb9p.dat" deleted by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM]
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Brian C. Lane
2004-06-07 19:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Thanks Brian. Just seems there is little action today. If someone wants to
subscribe where do they go? The info I saved says "visit the URL's" but not
the URL's. www.buoy.com is just the site for the ISP.
Look a little deeper...

<G>
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Its at the bottom of each message :)

Brian
--
---[Office 71.7F]--[Fridge 36.8F]---[Fozzy 95.8F]--[Coaster 71.8F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
2004-06-08 14:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Brian. Duh on my part. I sometime wonder why the folks I support are
so dense. Bet they think the same of me.

David
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 03:20:33PM -0400, David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
Thanks Brian. Just seems there is little action today. If someone wants
to
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
subscribe where do they go? The info I saved says "visit the URL's" but
not
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
the URL's. www.buoy.com is just the site for the ISP.
Look a little deeper...
<G>
Post by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
Its at the bottom of each message :)
Brian
--
---[Office 71.7F]--[Fridge 36.8F]---[Fozzy 95.8F]--[Coaster 71.8F]---
Linux Software Developer http://www.brianlane.com
[attachment "attu0p1a.dat" deleted by David Gibson/Portsmouth/IBM]
_______________________________________________
Weather mailing list
http://www.buoy.com/mailman/listinfo/weather
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